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flyinghamster 2 days ago [-]
The one thing I lamented about the Apple II Plus (vs. the original with Integer BASIC) was that to make room for autostart, they had to rip out the mini-assembler in the Monitor ROM. That was the closest thing I ever saw to an assembly-language REPL before this. At least they were able to keep the disassembler.
MomsAVoxell 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, I remember when this happened, it was a bummer .. but taught us the valuable lesson that the hardware manufacturer can give, but also take away. At least it kind of kicked off a tooling market ..
Incidentally, apropos onboard assemblies, in my retro collection I have a Commodore PC running an ancient DOS, and it is unique because of two reasons: it has DEBUG.com, and .. the machine is infected with one of the very early viruses of the era.
So, if you know the right path to take on boot, you can get the virus to infect things, under the debugger, and see it in action.
DEBUG.com was for me, a complete boon of a tool, so to speak, back in the day. It was just enough assembler/debugger to be able to do very effective things.
Anyway, Z80 REPL is delightful, I want a 6502 REPL now, and can't stop thinking about how to get one on the Atmos..
boomlinde 2 days ago [-]
It's common in the C64 world to use freezer cartridges that allow you to interrupt normal operation and invoke a monitor program. These typically include rudimentary assemblers and disassemblers as well. Fun and useful for patching and reverse engineering!
boomlinde 2 days ago [-]
Btw, I've only had a rough idea of how these are actually implemented, non-maskable interrupt something-something, and never knew how they make sure that the interrupt vector points to some persistent routine that can invoke the monitor. I found this great article explaining at least how The Final Cartridge 3 does it (in the first two sections): https://www.pagetable.com/282
Zeetah 2 days ago [-]
The Atari 8-bit computers could have a similar capability by using a product called Omnimon. Great way to look inside programs.
EvanAnderson 2 days ago [-]
I remember being so confused, as a 10 y/o kid, trying to follow examples from an Apple II-era book on my public library's Apple IIe computers. I didn't understand why I couldn't get the mini assembler to work. The idea that features would be removed on future machines simply didn't occur to me. I guess I really didn't even understand that the IIe was a different machine than what the book was written for since most everything else worked as-expected.
kevin_thibedeau 2 days ago [-]
The mini-assembler was still available from Integer BASIC on II+ and IIe. It returned to ROM for later IIe models.
EvanAnderson 2 days ago [-]
It makes sense that I didn't find it. Integer BASIC didn't make sense to 10 y/o me, either. I'd started with Applesoft, since it was in ROM, and Integer BASIC seemed needless and strange. I also didn't understand why "FP" was the command to get into Applesoft.
(These are yet more examples of situations where, if I'd had a mentor, I think I would have gone much further at a younger age.)
MomsAVoxell 5 hours ago [-]
I'm guessing you don't still have the machine?
In any case, Apple II simulators might be one way you can take another look at the subject, with wiser old eyes.
EvanAnderson 2 hours ago [-]
I got lucky and built a decent Apple II collection in the late 90s and early 2000's before their prices became ridiculous. I bought an enhanced IIe first because that was closest to the computer I grew up with. Later I got a 48K II+ and was able to experience that era of Apple II computing. To round out the collection I got a ROM03 IIgs and decked it out with a memory upgrade and a BMoW Floppy Emu. I never was particularly interested in the IIc so I opted not to get one.
My "white whale" machine was the Laser 128. A friend had one and I enjoyed using it. He'd bring it over to my house and hook it up to the TV. Having a portable computer in the late 80s, even if it wasn't battery powered and didn't have a screen, was pretty cool. I wish I'd bought it from him when he moved to PCs and sold it but at the time I didn't realize it was a good find. It's a bit like the IIc but, I'd argue, is overall a better machine.
I started using the Apple IIe when I was 8 y/o. I started with playing games and programming in Applesoft BASIC, and eventually got to the point of doing rudimentary 6502 assembler programming (mainly modifying programs from magazines). I left the platform at 12 y/o when my father bought a PC.
When I was 14 y/o I scored a copy of the venerable "Inside the Apple IIe" cheap. I spent part of summer vacation really digging-in to the machine. I didn't have a IIe at home so I spent a lot of that summer in the public library using the old IIe machines. They were long-in-the-tooth at that point and no other patrons used them anymore. I got as much time as I wanted on them because of that. It was a fun contrast to the 1 hour / day limit each person got back when I started using them. I could come in when the library opened and spend all day there grinding away.
I feel fortunate having come back to the platform with a broader exposure to programming and while I still had the energy and exuberance of a teenager. I understood a lot more about what was going on and I was willing to grind thru tedium. I had a lot of fun playing w/ double-hires graphics, digitizing audio via the cassette interface, and doing some rudimentary software cracking. It was a fun time.
The BBC Micro and the Atom that came before it had an assembler built into BASIC. Just think, in the early 80s you could do inline assembly if your BASIC code wasn't fast enough...
MomsAVoxell 5 hours ago [-]
13 year old me had a box of cassette tapes with index labels like "0 DEBUG", and "10 ASS", and "28 MEMHAK", "30 UNDEL", and so on, where the #'s were the position - on tape - of the little bundle of utilities I would auto-load as soon as I got home from school, while having dinner, etc. I spent days, dreaming of having a ROM burner to put all these things in the last (usable) 16k address space of things ..
abecedarius 2 days ago [-]
I felt the same way.
There was another downside, that the Applesoft BASIC license gave Microsoft a hostage which they later used to kill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBASIC. Hard to tell how much it mattered that the Mac came with no user programmability, which had been expected for PCs till then.
Gracana 2 days ago [-]
Wow, somehow I didn't know about this. Now I'm angry, bundling an official Macintosh BASIC on every computer would have been huuuge for young-me.
I also wish I could select from the completion list with Tab without typing more of the instruction, fish-style. I.e., you press Tab to go through completion 1, completion 2, ..., completion N, completion 1 again with Enter to confirm your pick.
jhallenworld 2 days ago [-]
You should support symbols... For example, the monitor on my 6800 / 6809 Exorciser simulator has this (the "Offset at..." is printed when it fixes forward references):
~/exorsim$ exor -d
% a 1000
1000: start bra skip
1002: nop
1003: nop
1004: skip ldx #10
Offset at 1001 set to 02
1007: loop dex
1008: nop
1009: bne loop
100b: rts
100c:
% sy
1007 loop
1004 skip
1000 start
% u 1000
1000: 20 02 BRA $1004
1002: 01 NOP
1003: 01 NOP
1004: CE 00 0A LDX #$000A
1007: 09 DEX
1008: 01 NOP
1009: 26 FC BNE $1007
100B: 39 RTS
What would be even better: "a" brings up a built-in mini-editor. When you exit, the code is assembled.
Incidentally, apropos onboard assemblies, in my retro collection I have a Commodore PC running an ancient DOS, and it is unique because of two reasons: it has DEBUG.com, and .. the machine is infected with one of the very early viruses of the era.
So, if you know the right path to take on boot, you can get the virus to infect things, under the debugger, and see it in action.
DEBUG.com was for me, a complete boon of a tool, so to speak, back in the day. It was just enough assembler/debugger to be able to do very effective things.
Anyway, Z80 REPL is delightful, I want a 6502 REPL now, and can't stop thinking about how to get one on the Atmos..
(These are yet more examples of situations where, if I'd had a mentor, I think I would have gone much further at a younger age.)
In any case, Apple II simulators might be one way you can take another look at the subject, with wiser old eyes.
My "white whale" machine was the Laser 128. A friend had one and I enjoyed using it. He'd bring it over to my house and hook it up to the TV. Having a portable computer in the late 80s, even if it wasn't battery powered and didn't have a screen, was pretty cool. I wish I'd bought it from him when he moved to PCs and sold it but at the time I didn't realize it was a good find. It's a bit like the IIc but, I'd argue, is overall a better machine.
I started using the Apple IIe when I was 8 y/o. I started with playing games and programming in Applesoft BASIC, and eventually got to the point of doing rudimentary 6502 assembler programming (mainly modifying programs from magazines). I left the platform at 12 y/o when my father bought a PC.
When I was 14 y/o I scored a copy of the venerable "Inside the Apple IIe" cheap. I spent part of summer vacation really digging-in to the machine. I didn't have a IIe at home so I spent a lot of that summer in the public library using the old IIe machines. They were long-in-the-tooth at that point and no other patrons used them anymore. I got as much time as I wanted on them because of that. It was a fun contrast to the 1 hour / day limit each person got back when I started using them. I could come in when the library opened and spend all day there grinding away.
I feel fortunate having come back to the platform with a broader exposure to programming and while I still had the energy and exuberance of a teenager. I understood a lot more about what was going on and I was willing to grind thru tedium. I had a lot of fun playing w/ double-hires graphics, digitizing audio via the cassette interface, and doing some rudimentary software cracking. It was a fun time.
[0] https://archive.org/details/Inside_the_Apple_IIe
There was another downside, that the Applesoft BASIC license gave Microsoft a hostage which they later used to kill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBASIC. Hard to tell how much it mattered that the Mac came with no user programmability, which had been expected for PCs till then.
With that said, I love the idea.
https://github.com/jhallen/exorsim